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Monday, June 16, 2014
Another Pair of Puce and Green. Rosenbaum's Bitters
Here is a pair of early western squares in shades of puce and green. The "large" size Rosenbaum's Bitters, N.B. Jacobs & Co. San Francisco. This size is listed as R-93 in Ring/Ham and is considered rare. I believe there are about 30 of this variant of the Rosenbaum's in collections although I am not certain of their condition. These two are is a light yellow olive green, and a cherry puce with pink tone which did not photograph very well today. It is believed that this version of the large Rosenbaum's may have been blown in the East, and the examples with the tapered collar with ring were blown in S.F. The base characteristics are also different with one having a dot in the center and the other not. I believe these are mid 1860's bitters and come in many colors from amber, to olive amber, light yellow olive, to more green, and occasionally puce and even a pastel blue green as well as a true wine or claret. I would be interested in dividing them up as to color "rarity" similar to the Lacour's. These are historically significant and early western bitters. DM
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The title of a song by AC/DC pretty much sums this one up: "Whole Lotta Rosie"!
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeletethink the song you speak of was by Led Zepplin whole lotta love don't know what that has to do with western glass anyway
They are excellent things to have around the house
ReplyDeleteIt's AC/DC, do a Goggle search. Rosenbaum's = "Rosie". I think the comment was completely related to the post as a compliment to the poster and his bottles.
ReplyDeleteOf the large variant, the light grass green colored examples are rare with four known, only one whole example. The aqua large variant with two known, again only one whole example. The large embossed Rosenbaums bottle began to be marketed around September 1864, most likely due to Jacobs continuing problems with counterfeiters such as the Turner Bros, then the Cassin co., in the early '60'-s.
ReplyDeleteThanks Warren,
ReplyDeleteHow about puce examples in mint condition ( which this example is) ? I have seen one in a dark claret in the RS collection, and I believe DD has one with a small lip repair. Those and this one are the only intact examples in puce tones I have personally seen, but I am sure there are more. DM
Great looking squares. Anyone interested in doing a western bitters survey while many of the original diggers and collectors are still in the hobby ? It would be great to know where each example was dug, but at the very least the survey could pin down how many examples of each color and in what condition.
ReplyDelete??
Andrew I am definitely interested. We could utilize this blog, and others such as Peachridge or other sites.The FOHBC as well. The objective would be to provide a format which could be filled out easily and compiled. The challenges are the "secret collectors" who want to hide out in the shadows, or reaching everyone holding western bitters. Surely in this day of technology, compared to phoning, writing letters or hitting the road, we should be able to handle this. I am in! Dale M.
ReplyDeleteA while back Warren and I tried to do a survey on the ranking of western bitters. The survey was fairly easy to take ( what was your number one bitters on down to what was the least desirable western bitters ) We sent out and hand delivered over 200 surveys for collectors to fill out. We received back just a fraction over 50 filled out surveys. A dismal response from the collecting community.
ReplyDeleteI am not pointing fingers but a while back a survey was done on top western whiskies that was never published or the information gathered ever revealed. The survey was about where the top whiskies were found. The scuttle butt in the western whiskey community was the information from the survey was used as a road map of what areas to re-dig.
Sure, I would love to see a survey on the count of western bitters but I don't think we need to know what block they were dug off of in what city. Maybe y'all could work on a format for the survey
rs
Why not figure out what cities the bitters were dug in ? Lets be honest, digging in California is a dying animal and releasing that information is not going to harm anyone. How many diggers are left in California, less than 10 ? Compare that to what, maybe 100 in the 1970s ? We all know that San Francisco has produced some incredible sodas, Marsyville some incredible bitters, Grass Valley......everything !
ReplyDeleteI think the total of diggers left just in northern California would be close to thirty or more, at least seven of them regularly post on this site. And there were more than just a hundred at some of the digging sites in San Francisco back in the day.............
ReplyDeleteHi Al,
ReplyDeleteThe format is being developed as we speak... It will focus on the earlier and rare western bitters and exclude the common and uncountable examples like square Peruvian, Lash's, Yerba Buena, and others. it should be an on line survey focusing on whether you own the bottle ( in mint or near mint condition), and color. Pretty simple and easy. If you would like to receive a survey upon it's completion, please email me at dalemlasko@charter.net. It will be very interesting to get an accounting of these great pieces of western history. Dale M.
I meant "Hi All" DM
ReplyDeleteJust an FYI on surveys: Having conducted similar such surveys in the collecting community in the past, I've found that it takes more dedication than just putting it out there and expecting the information to just flow in (you can expect a 25% participation rate at best). There are many reasons and excuses as to why many avoid public surveys: too busy; don't see the importance; wanted to, but never got around to it; don't want my collection known publicly; etc. Yes, we all know there are collectors out there that can be very private about their collecting, but I've personally found most are willing to provide anonymous information if contacted privately and reassured that their identities are kept confidential. As for the person(s) conducting the survey, never use the opportunity to offer to buy any items disclosed for the survey, otherwise ulterior motives are suspected. Sometimes they may feel more comfortable if the information is provided anonymously through a trusted and close second party. Leave all options open.
ReplyDeleteSo I recommend putting the survey out there first for volunteered information, then start making direct contact. When contacting collectors, always ask if they know of other private collectors that may currently own items on the survey list. Names need not be revealed, but confirmation, either direct or assisted, of the absolute current whereabouts of the item(s) in question must be made, otherwise a single item can easily be counted twice (or more) due to change of ownership. Always follow up and confirm.
I realize this is all pretty obvious information, but wanted to share it nonetheless. I think such surveys are very important for our hobby, both currently and for the future. How many puzzles are we currently trying to solve by researching vague information provided back in the 1800s? If only they cared more back then about documenting the history they were creating, it would be much clearer to us today. We are also part of creating history by uncovering and maintaining these relics today. There is no reason why we can't be more successful at documenting it. Kudos to those that make a sincere attempt!
Thanks for the feedback Dwayne,
ReplyDeleteAll of your points are well thought out and have been considered. Remaining anonymous is definitely part of the format, and the assumption is that most collectors truly want to know how many of a particular example and in what colors exist in collections. It is also assumed that everyone will not participate however if the format is safe and there is no "funny business" it should prove to be of value. The motive is education and research and nothing else. I am sure that once the numbers of the most desired western bitters and colors are compiled, almost everyone will have found it valuable.
Dale M.
You'll be putting some people on the spot who don't want to be there by "making direct contact" asking what they have. Partly as a result of what happened with the whiskey survey and those who don't want to advertise their collections.
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect "Anonymous" poster, you just proved my point. You just posted your opinion in a public forum. Nobody knows who you are or where you live. Assuming that you had said that you have two Lacour's...one in yellow and one in green, as well as a Cassin's variant two in emerald green, we would have a "count" of these bitters without anyone knowing anything about you. The survey format being considered would allow for totally anonymous feedback in the same manner. Even the IRS cannot track down almost two years of their emails so everyone participating who wishes to be under the radar will be able to do so. Dale Mlasko
ReplyDeleteI think people that can't share what they have publicly, privately or annonymously shouldn't be collectors. I just don't get it?
ReplyDeleteWhy not do a survey trying to estimate the numbers on some of the western bitters ? We don't need to figure out where they were dug, most of that knowledge is already floating around.
ReplyDeleteHow many collectors are online, 50% ?
Hmm.. I suspect that the people who want to share such information already have done so in one venue or another, Those that don't won't. I would have to agree that many collectors I've met would rather keep their "best" acquisitions on the down low. That is of course at odds with those who want to track the history of rarer examples. Hasn't it always been that way?
ReplyDeleteAnd as to how many collectors are online probably more like 30% - I can name on 1 hand the people in my locale who post/share/read blogs such as this one.